I think it's that Wolfe left Archie *too far* out of the loop on this one. He didn't tell him anything, not even that he *had* a plan. I think I've observed before how irritating it is for Archie when Wolfe goes, "I know who the killer is, and I have a Plan, but I just won't tell you about it yet," but I guess this is the other option-- not telling Archie anything at all and just letting him believe that the whole case is going to crash and burn.
You raise a very good point that every other time (at least as far as I know) it looks dicey, Wolfe does at least let Archie know there IS a plan of some sort. I guess I was thinking that if it was just that then Archie would be more annoyed and less panicked, if that makes sense?
So if Wolfe doesn't snap out of it, it's not just "oops, we might not solve the case" but possibly like, "we might have to fire Fritz and Theodore and move into a cold-water flat!" or something unthinkable like that. ^_^
I didn’t think they might not get hired again, I have to say; though I guess Cramer being potentially out of action would make that more likely. And I was assuming they’d be okay for a while at least because of the emergency money put aside. But maybe that hasn’t happened yet – do we know when that’s set up? - and even the idea of losing the Brownstone would absolutely freak Archie the hell out, so yeah.
I actually read it as-- Archie *first* thinks that all of Wolfe's shenanigans were to manipulate the situation so that he could *believably* return the thirty thousand dollar retainer, and then after waiting a bit, earn the hundred thousand dollar reward-- which comes a bit close to crossing the ethical line of "Private detectives don't betray their clients." And I don't think Wolfe really hated the NIA personally, but like you said, he respected Phoebe and her sacrifice, and he dragged it out for so long because he wanted to hurt the NIA for her, or on her behalf anyway. (And probably it doesn't help that they're all jerks.) Which, again, is still kind of murky ethically, but if it's for *Phoebe* and not just for the money, then Archie is okay with it.
I kind of love there’s so many readings of this! I got the political bit from Archie’s little bit about how he and Wolfe share an opinion of the NIA which many other people also hold. (And the fact the NIA are all jerks, which to me came over as Stout’s personal stuff like the way the FBI all suck, too.)
I love Phoebe too (see icon!) Despite the fact that we actually have lady private eyes like Dol Bonner and Sally Colt, I personally see Phoebe as the closest we get to a girl version of Archie Goodwin.
HAH, icon, love it! That line also struck me as very very Archie, and I love your comparison of her relationship with her boss and Archie’s with his: that absolutely could be swapped over with only minor editing and read perfectly true.
And really this is totally what Archie would do if Wolfe got killed: he would figure out *not just* how to bring the culprit to justice officially, but how to punish them in the way that Wolfe would have wanted, to destroy whatever it is they killed Wolfe over, and only *after* everything they tried to save has been destroyed, *then* turn the killer over to the cops. And, imo, he'd also probably get killed trying, like Phoebe did.
*nod nod nod* Oh yeah, definitely. I guess nice was probably the wrong word – I meant more that she, acting from very different motives and caught up in her own stuff, wouldn’t necessarily think straight away that someone would try to kill her in quite such an audacious way. And she has Archie’s confidence; I can see both of them recognising a risk but also thinking they’ve dealt with it well enough that they let their guard down a little, which then turns out to be the weakness in their defences.
I was thinking about this earlier-- maybe I've lost track, but is this the first time san innocent person has been *murdered* in/near the brownstone? Mostly the people who have died in the brownstone before this have been The Killer, haven't they? (Calida Frost who kills herself in "Red Box", and then whats-his-name who gets shot by Archie and the other guy in "Rubber Band...") Later on, innocent people get murdered in the brownstone who are strangers to Wolfe and Archie, but yeah, it's much more affecting this time to have it be a double whammy-- that it happens on their home ground *and* that it's Phoebe, who Archie really connected with.
There was the other guy in Red Box, but I don’t know if he counts as an innocent exactly – he wasn’t The Killer but he wasn’t someone particularly sympathetic, either. There was an element of Now It’s Personal but not nearly as much as with Phoebe… I think maybe also because Phoebe’s death was much more immediate, the killer was right there and made a deliberate choice to have the Brownstone as a the scene of the crime, instead of it being just an accident that he happened to take a poisoned asprin while he was there.
And he gives Wolfe an ORCHID! <3 <3 <3 SO MANY HEARTS. He is so darling. Warning Wolfe not to try any more tricks, because he's got his EYE on him, so THERE, and then totally being too embarrassed to be like "here's your orchid," but running awayyyyy and being like "oh yeah, that's for you, GOODBYE." And Wolfe treasures it even though it's just a grubby ordinary orchid and not a special collectors' orchid like all of his! Did I mention, SO MANY HEARTS. <3
Oh my lord, I totally forgot to put that bit in. I kind of really love Cramer, actually – I think I’d find Wolfe and Archie annoying to deal with sometimes too, and I like that despite that he still respects that Wolfe and Archie are good at what they do. And also, AWW.
Haha, yes. Earlier when Archie hits Don O'Neill, Wolfe is all peevish and "I dislike commotion," but now all of a sudden it's SIC HIM, ARCHIE. GET HIM! And Archie literally throwing his body in between Wolfe and a punch! N'aaw.
I know! it’s AWESOME! And another illustration of Wolfe’s moral lines, I thought; it looks to me like he’s got a no-violence policy right up to the moment someone tries to touch him or arrest him. (Or if Archie punching someone would be awesome. *g*)
Yeah, not to mention, that doesn't even make any sense as something Archie would expect if Wolfe didn't like women on *misogynist* grounds. If ONLY it were true that "misogynist" and "man who appreciates the sight of attractive women" were non-overlapping groups!
Seriously! It actually reads way more like Archie has been trying to work out exactly how heterosexual Wolfe is and is entirely discomfited to find that he might be a bit. *g*
Yeah, maybe he can pretend to be "just one of the guys" most of the time, when he's out there in the world, but now they're all actually *in the house* and eating Fritz' food and really seeing how they live. He can't deny it now! So of course he goes in the other direction and totally plays it up: "that's, you know, French, which is the language of Frenchmen, who live in FRANCE, which you uncultured flatfoots wouldn't know about--" etc.
Which is so very Archie and makes me laugh a lot. Hee. (Though Archie also seems a tad defensive as he’s doing it, which struck me as very realistic.)
Also, I think that "Bronx cheer" is probably a genteel gloss on "middle finger". *G*
See, I totally thought that too, but when I looked it up everything said it meant blowing a raspberry! But maybe that was another use of it, or Stout liked the phrase enough to use it instead, in the same way he tells us people swear without actually going there. :)
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You raise a very good point that every other time (at least as far as I know) it looks dicey, Wolfe does at least let Archie know there IS a plan of some sort. I guess I was thinking that if it was just that then Archie would be more annoyed and less panicked, if that makes sense?
So if Wolfe doesn't snap out of it, it's not just "oops, we might not solve the case" but possibly like, "we might have to fire Fritz and Theodore and move into a cold-water flat!" or something unthinkable like that. ^_^
I didn’t think they might not get hired again, I have to say; though I guess Cramer being potentially out of action would make that more likely. And I was assuming they’d be okay for a while at least because of the emergency money put aside. But maybe that hasn’t happened yet – do we know when that’s set up? - and even the idea of losing the Brownstone would absolutely freak Archie the hell out, so yeah.
I actually read it as-- Archie *first* thinks that all of Wolfe's shenanigans were to manipulate the situation so that he could *believably* return the thirty thousand dollar retainer, and then after waiting a bit, earn the hundred thousand dollar reward-- which comes a bit close to crossing the ethical line of "Private detectives don't betray their clients." And I don't think Wolfe really hated the NIA personally, but like you said, he respected Phoebe and her sacrifice, and he dragged it out for so long because he wanted to hurt the NIA for her, or on her behalf anyway. (And probably it doesn't help that they're all jerks.) Which, again, is still kind of murky ethically, but if it's for *Phoebe* and not just for the money, then Archie is okay with it.
I kind of love there’s so many readings of this! I got the political bit from Archie’s little bit about how he and Wolfe share an opinion of the NIA which many other people also hold. (And the fact the NIA are all jerks, which to me came over as Stout’s personal stuff like the way the FBI all suck, too.)
I love Phoebe too (see icon!) Despite the fact that we actually have lady private eyes like Dol Bonner and Sally Colt, I personally see Phoebe as the closest we get to a girl version of Archie Goodwin.
HAH, icon, love it! That line also struck me as very very Archie, and I love your comparison of her relationship with her boss and Archie’s with his: that absolutely could be swapped over with only minor editing and read perfectly true.
And really this is totally what Archie would do if Wolfe got killed: he would figure out *not just* how to bring the culprit to justice officially, but how to punish them in the way that Wolfe would have wanted, to destroy whatever it is they killed Wolfe over, and only *after* everything they tried to save has been destroyed, *then* turn the killer over to the cops. And, imo, he'd also probably get killed trying, like Phoebe did.
*nod nod nod* Oh yeah, definitely. I guess nice was probably the wrong word – I meant more that she, acting from very different motives and caught up in her own stuff, wouldn’t necessarily think straight away that someone would try to kill her in quite such an audacious way. And she has Archie’s confidence; I can see both of them recognising a risk but also thinking they’ve dealt with it well enough that they let their guard down a little, which then turns out to be the weakness in their defences.
I was thinking about this earlier-- maybe I've lost track, but is this the first time san innocent person has been *murdered* in/near the brownstone? Mostly the people who have died in the brownstone before this have been The Killer, haven't they? (Calida Frost who kills herself in "Red Box", and then whats-his-name who gets shot by Archie and the other guy in "Rubber Band...") Later on, innocent people get murdered in the brownstone who are strangers to Wolfe and Archie, but yeah, it's much more affecting this time to have it be a double whammy-- that it happens on their home ground *and* that it's Phoebe, who Archie really connected with.
There was the other guy in Red Box, but I don’t know if he counts as an innocent exactly – he wasn’t The Killer but he wasn’t someone particularly sympathetic, either. There was an element of Now It’s Personal but not nearly as much as with Phoebe… I think maybe also because Phoebe’s death was much more immediate, the killer was right there and made a deliberate choice to have the Brownstone as a the scene of the crime, instead of it being just an accident that he happened to take a poisoned asprin while he was there.
And he gives Wolfe an ORCHID! <3 <3 <3 SO MANY HEARTS. He is so darling. Warning Wolfe not to try any more tricks, because he's got his EYE on him, so THERE, and then totally being too embarrassed to be like "here's your orchid," but running awayyyyy and being like "oh yeah, that's for you, GOODBYE." And Wolfe treasures it even though it's just a grubby ordinary orchid and not a special collectors' orchid like all of his! Did I mention, SO MANY HEARTS. <3
Oh my lord, I totally forgot to put that bit in. I kind of really love Cramer, actually – I think I’d find Wolfe and Archie annoying to deal with sometimes too, and I like that despite that he still respects that Wolfe and Archie are good at what they do. And also, AWW.
Haha, yes. Earlier when Archie hits Don O'Neill, Wolfe is all peevish and "I dislike commotion," but now all of a sudden it's SIC HIM, ARCHIE. GET HIM! And Archie literally throwing his body in between Wolfe and a punch! N'aaw.
I know! it’s AWESOME! And another illustration of Wolfe’s moral lines, I thought; it looks to me like he’s got a no-violence policy right up to the moment someone tries to touch him or arrest him. (Or if Archie punching someone would be awesome. *g*)
Yeah, not to mention, that doesn't even make any sense as something Archie would expect if Wolfe didn't like women on *misogynist* grounds. If ONLY it were true that "misogynist" and "man who appreciates the sight of attractive women" were non-overlapping groups!
Seriously! It actually reads way more like Archie has been trying to work out exactly how heterosexual Wolfe is and is entirely discomfited to find that he might be a bit. *g*
Yeah, maybe he can pretend to be "just one of the guys" most of the time, when he's out there in the world, but now they're all actually *in the house* and eating Fritz' food and really seeing how they live. He can't deny it now! So of course he goes in the other direction and totally plays it up: "that's, you know, French, which is the language of Frenchmen, who live in FRANCE, which you uncultured flatfoots wouldn't know about--" etc.
Which is so very Archie and makes me laugh a lot. Hee. (Though Archie also seems a tad defensive as he’s doing it, which struck me as very realistic.)
Also, I think that "Bronx cheer" is probably a genteel gloss on "middle finger". *G*
See, I totally thought that too, but when I looked it up everything said it meant blowing a raspberry! But maybe that was another use of it, or Stout liked the phrase enough to use it instead, in the same way he tells us people swear without actually going there. :)