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milk_and_orchids2010-04-17 04:12 pm
jest) wrote in milk_and_orchids2010-04-17 04:12 pm
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Book Club: The League of Frightened Men
Sorry to be sliding this in at the last minute. There was a volcano. It erupted.
League of Frightened Men continues the trend of Archie acting like a five year old. In this case, a five year old with attention deficit disorder. The story opens with Wolfe and Archie in the office. Archie is in the middle of an I'm BORED, Pay Attention to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tantrum. I suspect that Archie Goodwin is every bit as high maintenance as Nero Wolfe himself.
While Archie throws pejoratives around like it is 1935, we are introduced to the antagonist, Paul Chapin, who became disabled during a hazing incident that took place at Harvard University. Paul Chapin is an Evil Cripple, with shades of Genius Cripple. I am really curious about how prevalent these tropes were when Rex Stout was writing this book. My familiarity with the Evil Cripple/Evil Wheelchair User comes mostly from Doctor Who; I'm not sure what sort of presence it had before that.
Anyway, enter Paul Chapin, psychopath. Enter the cowardly clients. Who exactly is intended to be the sympathetic character in this book? Evelyn Hibbard seemed like a good person, but she was only around for about five pages.
Which reminds me, although Wolfe is the character that is generally considered to be a misogynist I actually found Archie's attitude towards women the more offensive in this book. All his comments about women are along the lines of "…provided she's not just an item for the cleaners" or "nobody that knew merchandise would have put her on a bargain counter." It speaks volumes. Whereas Wolfe is "the only man I had ever met who used absolutely the same tone to a woman as to a man."
Archie's favorable opinion of other men seems to based on a combination of intelligence, competence, work ethic, nerve, and social class. He has a certain amount of contempt for college boys and the class privilege they represent. He obviously likes to think of himself as a working man. In Chapter 7 Archie refuses to let Fritz bring him his glass of milk in the evening, presumably because Archie doesn't like to think of himself as someone who needs to be waited on?
Wolfe's attitude towards Archie's intelligence is condescending, and who can blame him? Archie is more often in the role of man of action than man of intelligence. He claims that he has been working for Wolfe for seven years. This is easy to believe when they fight like an old married couple. At one point Archie is yelling at Wolfe when Orrie shows up with Paul Chapin's box, causing Archie to immediately break out the respectful tone and it's all, Honey, let's not fight in front of the company. *g*
But, seriously, what exactly has Archie been doing for seven years? Keeping orchid records? Body guarding? Nursing Wolfe through relapses?
Wolfe's agoraphobia and relapses are one of the most interesting features of the early books, and are something I like to keep track of.
In chapter 10:
Of course, we need to recognize the significance of Wolfe leaving the house to appreciate the scene where Archie has been drugged and is devastated at the thought that Wolfe might be murdered.
(Confession: every time I read it that scene makes me squeee so hard that I actually have to put the book down and pace around my flat enjoying it for a while before I can resume reading.)
In Chapter 11: "I have seen him, during a relapse, dispose completely of a ten-pound goose between eight o'clock and midnight."
That strikes me as a symptom of something other than eccentricity.
Thoughts? Opinions?
League of Frightened Men continues the trend of Archie acting like a five year old. In this case, a five year old with attention deficit disorder. The story opens with Wolfe and Archie in the office. Archie is in the middle of an I'm BORED, Pay Attention to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tantrum. I suspect that Archie Goodwin is every bit as high maintenance as Nero Wolfe himself.
While Archie throws pejoratives around like it is 1935, we are introduced to the antagonist, Paul Chapin, who became disabled during a hazing incident that took place at Harvard University. Paul Chapin is an Evil Cripple, with shades of Genius Cripple. I am really curious about how prevalent these tropes were when Rex Stout was writing this book. My familiarity with the Evil Cripple/Evil Wheelchair User comes mostly from Doctor Who; I'm not sure what sort of presence it had before that.
Anyway, enter Paul Chapin, psychopath. Enter the cowardly clients. Who exactly is intended to be the sympathetic character in this book? Evelyn Hibbard seemed like a good person, but she was only around for about five pages.
Which reminds me, although Wolfe is the character that is generally considered to be a misogynist I actually found Archie's attitude towards women the more offensive in this book. All his comments about women are along the lines of "…provided she's not just an item for the cleaners" or "nobody that knew merchandise would have put her on a bargain counter." It speaks volumes. Whereas Wolfe is "the only man I had ever met who used absolutely the same tone to a woman as to a man."
Archie's favorable opinion of other men seems to based on a combination of intelligence, competence, work ethic, nerve, and social class. He has a certain amount of contempt for college boys and the class privilege they represent. He obviously likes to think of himself as a working man. In Chapter 7 Archie refuses to let Fritz bring him his glass of milk in the evening, presumably because Archie doesn't like to think of himself as someone who needs to be waited on?
Wolfe's attitude towards Archie's intelligence is condescending, and who can blame him? Archie is more often in the role of man of action than man of intelligence. He claims that he has been working for Wolfe for seven years. This is easy to believe when they fight like an old married couple. At one point Archie is yelling at Wolfe when Orrie shows up with Paul Chapin's box, causing Archie to immediately break out the respectful tone and it's all, Honey, let's not fight in front of the company. *g*
But, seriously, what exactly has Archie been doing for seven years? Keeping orchid records? Body guarding? Nursing Wolfe through relapses?
Wolfe's agoraphobia and relapses are one of the most interesting features of the early books, and are something I like to keep track of.
In chapter 10:
"…but I was thinking of suggesting that you go out and look at him."
"Out?" Wolfe raised his head at me. "Out and down the stoop?"
"Yeah, just on the sidewalk, you wouldn't have to step off the curb. He's right there."
Wolfe shut his eyes. "I don't know, Archie. I don't know why you persist in trying to badger me into frantic sorties. Dismiss the notion entirely. It is not feasible."
Of course, we need to recognize the significance of Wolfe leaving the house to appreciate the scene where Archie has been drugged and is devastated at the thought that Wolfe might be murdered.
(Confession: every time I read it that scene makes me squeee so hard that I actually have to put the book down and pace around my flat enjoying it for a while before I can resume reading.)
In Chapter 11: "I have seen him, during a relapse, dispose completely of a ten-pound goose between eight o'clock and midnight."
That strikes me as a symptom of something other than eccentricity.
Thoughts? Opinions?
no subject
I am not sure about Chapin either - he's really interesting, and I liked that he came over as legitimately powerful and smarter than the people who got him injured. I liked that it sort of started accidentally, too, actually, it came over to me as kind of 'well, okay, opportunity, may as well carry on with that and make fools of them all'. I mean, yeah there was the Evil Cripple issue, but I sort of felt like that was at least a bit better than most people attempting similar ideas at the same time? But the whole impotence thing and the frankly weird collection of stolen undies. I don't really know where to even begin with those, because they're so weird!
Archie's attitude to women gets better, I think, though; I like to put that down to Lily and also inexperience trying to work out exactly what the "normal" straight dude attitude would be. He very often seems like he's putting on his love for women - not that there's reason to doubt that he thinks various women are hot, but kind of like he's mentioning it because he feels he should, or expressing it a certain way because he thinks that's how he should express it. It's especially notable in cases where he's being his flirty skirt-chasing self riiight up until case intervenes and then it's bye-bye with narry a regret - I'm reading Poison a la Carte right now and omg seriously - but a similar sort of distance in his attitude is there from right early on, and it's fascinating. He likes the ladies, but he doesn't want to live with one, despite how many "I should have asked her to marry me!" jokes he makes to rile up Wolfe.
Oh and I wanted to add that the relapse stuff struck me similarly, as absolutely serious mental health stuff going on for Wolfe. What do you reckon Archie thinks of it? It seemed to me like Archie takes the relapses quite seriously; he's not like "and we got him assessed by a doctor" about it, but he never as far as I know/noticed made any "aaand Wolfe should just snap out of it the big baby" kind of comments either. It made me think that it would make total sense if one of the big reasons Archie first got hired was to assist during those relapses.
no subject
I wish I knew more about how other people were writing disability at the time. I'm not sure if Evil Cripple was a cliche in 1935. I kinda assume it was because this stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, but all the references I can find for the trope have to do with things that came along later.
The Undies! So CREEPY. Eeew.
He very often seems like he's putting on his love for women - not that there's reason to doubt that he thinks various women are hot, but kind of like he's mentioning it because he feels he should, or expressing it a certain way because he thinks that's how he should express it.
Yes! I really notice that with his xenophobic comments as well. He goes on about foreigners and all the while he lives with Wolfe and Fritz. Hi Archie, contradiction much? (did this come up when we were talking about Fer-de-Lance? I remember talking about it with somebody.) Sometimes it seems as though Archie says the things that he expects himself to say even though the words don't actually mesh up with his actions. Really, Archie Goodwin is a lot stranger than Archie Goodwin is willing to admit.
As for women...I don't think there ever was a woman, or even another man, that excited Archie the way Wolfe does. When people from other fandoms find out that I'm into slash about the two of them, a lot of people assume that it's all about Wolfe lusting after Archie. Yes, Wolfe loves Archie, but Archie finds Wolfe absolutely compelling. I doubt he could take his eyes off Wolfe long enough to fall in love with a woman. Seriously, he notices women for the time it takes them to sit in the red leather chair, and then he's back to going on about what Wolfe's lips are doing, and what Wolfe's hands are doing, and what Wolfe's eyes are doing, and whether Wolfe is moving his head in a 1/16th of an inch nod.
It seemed to me like Archie takes the relapses quite seriously; he's not like "and we got him assessed by a doctor" about it, but he never as far as I know/noticed made any "aaand Wolfe should just snap out of it the big baby" kind of comments either.
Archie is pretty clear about the fact that he doesn't coddle Wolfe through them. While Wolfe was eating the 10lb Goose, Archie sat in the corner with a ham sandwich and glared at him. He doesn't have a "snap out of it, you big baby" attitude...it's more like he accepts it as another aspect of Wolfe's eccentricity that must be contended with, so he tries to goad Wolfe out of it, much like he goads Wolfe into working.
no subject
I would be interested in a proper study on that too; as far as I know, then as now disability mostly just didn't exist in fiction, but I am also pretty sure there's at least one or two Christie characters from around that period who are worse than Chapin in terms of being actual fully fledged characters with lives.
Really, Archie Goodwin is a lot stranger than Archie Goodwin is willing to admit.
This is entirely true! I kind of love that; Archie clearly has a very particular image he wants to project, and he kind of does, but there's also all this stuff showing that that's not how he really is. He is a "ladies man" who doesn't want to actually shack up with a lady, he keeps quitting/being fired but has worked for Wolfe for years, he has some unfortunate ways of talking about foreigners but the main people in his life are immigrants, he is apparently a dance-all-night partier but mostly drinks milk! Genius.
(And OMFG he is OBSESSED with Wolfe's physical body. Like, if Wolfe wasn't fat, there is no way that would be seen as anything other than blatant ogling, but as he is, obvs there is no way anyone could fancy him. OMG. Archie has ENTIRE PARAGRAPHS about Wolfe's lips moving in and out!)
He doesn't have a "snap out of it, you big baby" attitude...it's more like he accepts it as another aspect of Wolfe's eccentricity that must be contended with, so he tries to goad Wolfe out of it, much like he goads Wolfe into working.
Yeah that is kind of what I was trying to express - they are accepted as being real and important (and in at least one book Archie's like, if it's a relapse it'll be nothing doing for at least a week, sort of like a force of nature), just not thought of medically in the way they would be now. He doesn't really get annoyed at Wolfe about them that much, considering how irritated he can get with other Wolfe attributes.
no subject
YES! THIS! EXACTLY THIS!
When I was rereading LoFM for this post, I thought about doing a spreadsheet tracking all the times when Archie notices Wolfe and comparing that against the times when he notices women, sorta like what
He doesn't really get annoyed at Wolfe about them that much, considering how irritated he can get with other Wolfe attributes.
I get what you're saying - I hadn't really thought of it that way. I've always assumed that the relapses make Archie want to kick something, preferably Wolfe himself; however, I think an annoyed Archie who refuses to be bullied by Wolfe is what Wolfe needs when he's on a relapse. Fritz would coddle Wolfe, and let him wallow in it, and the way Wolfe has shut himself up in the Brownstone, there aren't many other people who could pry him out of a dark mood. But Archie doesn't take no for an answer. It might be nothing doing for a week, but you know Archie spent the entire week pestering Wolfe so that Wolfe was forced to think about something other than all the trauma that put him on a relapse in the first place.
no subject
I think I am not expressing myself very well about the relapse issue! I am kind of comparing Archie's reaction to myself and people I know dealing with similar-albeit-not-identical stuff in real life, and in real life I would say there was more frustration/irritation - obviously when you care about someone you try not to take it out on them, since it's not their fault or choice, but it struck me as Archie rolling with it pretty well, especially given that in that period, Archie wouldn't necessarily have had the assumption that it wasn't Wolfe's fault/choice to help in that respect. I was thinking that I wouldn't have been surprised if Archie had been a bit more actively annoyed, and specifically annoyed at Wolfe himself - as opposed to irritated by the change in plans a relapse involves, which as you say is present.
And heh, yeah, Archie being like "can't we catch a criminal now? now? no? how about now?" is definitely more likely to help Wolfe than someone being all sympathetic. I am imagining some well-meaning nurse trying to get him to discuss it or something and Wolfe being all "Get this crazy person out of my house! Archie!"
no subject
BOY HOWDY +1 :D
From the very first book, of course we have that fixation on Wolfe's lips (not to mention the 'being able to read volumes in the tiniest twitch of any muscle'). And in this book, I ran across one of the (many) bits that focuses on Wolfe's hands:
Those always catch my attention--as the books continue, through Archie's eyes Wolfe's hands are graceful, precise, strong, and a hundred other positive (and sensory/sensual) things, whether he's noodling with the orchids or handling a clue.
Man, even without all the rest, lips-and-hands lips-and-hands lips-and-hands--I keep thinking of the meeting-scene at the masquerade in Romeo and Juliet.
no subject
And one thing I really love is that it's also expressed in a continual sense of Wolfe's physical presence. Archie always describes how Wolfe moves, how he sits, the degree to which his eyes are closed, the shift of his shoulders. Even the hottest girls don't get that much physical description of them. It's practically indecent, omg. :D
And even though Archie's always going on about "seventh of a ton" this and "the chairs weren't big enough for him" that, there's no sense that Archie finds Wolfe physically repellent in any way. There's none of the ew, fat that might crop up in something written later; it's kind of written about like he's seven foot tall or something, a bit of sideshow entertainment value but not like it's gross. Which is eeeeenteresting. *g*
no subject
It's really almost *sad* just how strange it is to be in that viewpoint and have it be just... *normal*, with no ISSUES of judging or shaming. Just: Wolfe is fat and that's normal for him. He's allowed to enjoy eating good food! He's allowed to enjoy wearing nice clothes! And he's not a stereotype, either, the fat person who ONLY cares about food-- he likes books! Maps! Orchids! Beauty! Drama! AND food, too, as part of the whole experience of life. And yeah, his fatness, affects certain aspects of his life, but it's not like a symbol or a sign of a fundamental character flaw. It's just so *refreshing*.
(And speaking of Archie being judgmental, which we were in... some other comment... when Archie gets on Wolfe's case about being lazy he hardly ever means *physically*, you know? Using his brain-- that's what both Wolfe and Archie consider "hard work," and when Wolfe decides to quit *thinking*, that's what really seriously pisses Archie off-- that's what he considers *actual* laziness on Wolfe's part, and that's when he gets REALLY judgmental.)
eta: And I should mention, specifically about "League of Frightened Men," that it's especially bizarre to me to have this really sort of enlightened, totally casual proto-fat-acceptance on Archie's part, and the really enlightened portrayal of a mentally ill character in Fer-de-Lance, and then in this book you get this MINDBOGGLING portrayal of Paul Chapin, "Aaaahhh, creepy psycho cripple with CRIPPLE POWERS, NOT A MAN, OH NOOO," just TOTALLY freaking out and symbolically equating a physical disability with a moral/mental disability. Like I said above, I do wonder whether we're supposed to look back after the "twist" and say "oh my god, these guys are all assholes, idiots and/or totally projecting; he wasn't ACTUALLY that creepy," but it's still not going to win any awards.
no subject
Oh god, THIS. It's really awful how it almost feels like that would be impossible today: Wolfe is completely allowed to be fat and still be a person in a way that is almost astonishing to read now. You are completely right on the allowed to like food thing in particular, and another one that sticks out for me is that when Wolfe does do something physical, there's never even the tiniest hint of "haha fat person trying to move" about it: Archie might say that something is impressive or whatever, but it's never something to mock in a way I as a modern reader almost expect to see. I love that.
(I also love that Wolfe doing physical exercise is almost always to do with Archie - omg Wolfe tries to catch fainting!Archie, and then lets Archie use his lap as a pillow all the way home! :D - and that Archie's reaction to Wolfe's only non-Zeck-inspired exercise regime is to freak the fuck out because OMG THAT CANNOT BE WOLFE MIGHT GET SENT TO THE FRONT AND GET HURT OMG OMG NO EMERGENCY EMERGENCY, but dude, seriously.)
I do wonder whether we're supposed to look back after the "twist" and say "oh my god, these guys are all assholes, idiots and/or totally projecting; he wasn't ACTUALLY that creepy," but it's still not going to win any awards.
It is totally, totally weird. I would agree that it seems likely we're supposed to think Archie overreacts: Archie seriously sees Chapin as almost not human, a lot of the time, as do the League, and then the ending does have that thing where suddenly he's a bit more human and leaving under his own steam. It doesn't make up for the utter wtf of earlier, but it does make me feel like the 'wow we were dumbasses, huh' might have been what was aimed at. Especially given that one of the big motivations Chapin does get to give on his own account is that he really hated the condescending kind of pity/charity he'd received from the League, and how glad he was when he could earn his own money and know he was supporting himself on his own terms. Especially on re-read, that comes over as quite sympathetic in a way Archie's OMG THIS GUY CREEPS ME OUT doesn't seem to really take in. It certainly doesn't do enough to rectify the problematic stuff, but it does I think lend credence to the idea that at least slightly less iffy stuff might have been intended.
no subject
Oh and I wanted to add that the relapse stuff struck me similarly, as absolutely serious mental health stuff going on for Wolfe. What do you reckon Archie thinks of it? It seemed to me like Archie takes the relapses quite seriously; he's not like "and we got him assessed by a doctor" about it, but he never as far as I know/noticed made any "aaand Wolfe should just snap out of it the big baby" kind of comments either.
*nod nod* Something Archie says in FDL that I forgot to mention-- when he's talking about his job as a bodyguard, or the gong in the hallway, or something like that-- "Wolfe explained to me he wasn't a coward, he just didn't LIKE being touched or compelled to move quickly, so I was totally okay with that, even though I normally have only scorn for sissy cowards!!"
And it's like: Archie, c'mon, by pretty much every stereotypical definition, Wolfe is totally the kind of guy you would and in fact DO scorn. The pickiness about his clothes, the foodie thing, the books, the fancy talk, the laziness, the moodiness, the melodrama, the *flowers*, fact that he even HAS a live-in bodyguard on top of a gong alarm to keep people out of his room at night-- basically, if Archie met any other guy who was like this, he *would* be full of scorn and disdain-- he would have no time at all for a weak-sister kinda guy like that. But somehow it's okay because it's *Wolfe*.
It's the same with Fritz-- "Fritz is the only guy I know who can giggle without giving me Worrisome Thoughts about his masculinity." Well, why? If you would worry about any other guy, why not Fritz? Because he's so overbearingly manly and has chicks dripping off him all the time? Not that *I* can see... It's totally circular logic: I think Fritz is okay because I'm okay with Fritz! And the same with Wolfe. Archie just has this rock-solid respect for *something* in Wolfe and that makes all the rest of it okay-- it's just the eccentricity of a genius, or something! Geniuses have these kinds of fixations, who can tell with a genius!
It made me think that it would make total sense if one of the big reasons Archie first got hired was to assist during those relapses.
Awww man, totally like Lord Peter and Bunter! :D
no subject
And omg, yes, totally, Wolfe does stuff all the time that Archie gets at least pseudo-judgey about. (I have my suspicions that he's not actually always all that judgey; some of it seems like whim, i.e. if he's already in a bad mood or whatever, and a bunch of it seems, like his professions of love for women, to be kind of... tacked on, either exaggerated or expressed differently than he actually feels for effect? It's interesting.)
no subject
OK, Archie would never call himself anybody's *servant*, but that's exactly what Bunter does! He totally is Peter's rock while he's practically comatose with PTSD and can't get over his responsibility/guilt issues! Then Harriet comes along and meets him years later when he's mostly functional. Well, nearly always mostly functional. Hmm. I wonder if Fritz is more like Bunter in this scenario, actually-- he nurses Wolfe along until he's well enough to work, and then Archie comes along and helps bring him a little further along.
And omg, yes, totally, Wolfe does stuff all the time that Archie gets at least pseudo-judgey about. (I have my suspicions that he's not actually always all that judgey; some of it seems like whim, i.e. if he's already in a bad mood or whatever, and a bunch of it seems, like his professions of love for women, to be kind of... tacked on, either exaggerated or expressed differently than he actually feels for effect? It's interesting.)
Yeah, a lot of times the "Pffff, Wolfe is so ridiculous with his [insert sincerely ridiculous hobby/pet peeve/habit here]" feels a lot like the "omg NO CHAIR BIG ENOUGH" moments, in that it feels more like Archie is holding this stuff (Wolfe's supposedly annoying habits, Wolfe's supposedly unattractive physicality) up as a shield to keep himself from expressing what he really thinks/feels. "Well, of course I don't, you know, FEEL THINGS about Wolfe, except irritation because he's so annoying, and shock/awe because he's so ginormous! He's just a really annoying, picky boss, and now I will go punch someone in the face for disrespecting him! And dive in front of a bullet for him!! And stare at him until I have memorized every facial expression and every laugh and every smile and every motion of his hands!!! And pretty much plan on living with him forever!!!! And-- *cough, cough* Did I mention how annoying and huge he is? Because. Yes. That." And it's just like, *pat, pat*, Yes, Archie, we know. Keep on telling us how annoying and fat Wolfe is. You're not fond of him at all, we get it.
no subject
And it's just like, *pat, pat*, Yes, Archie, we know. Keep on telling us how annoying and fat Wolfe is. You're not fond of him at all, we get it.
It is really cute how true that is. :D :D
no subject
Do we know much about how Fritz came to the household? I don't think we do, do we?
Nope. Fritz is almost more mysterious than Wolfe! All we know is that he was in WWI.
And Archie has a lot of the same issues with settling with Wolfe that Harriet does with Lord Peter, too...
Ahahahahhaaaaa... WOW. I hadn't ever thought about it *quite* like that, but. Wow. You're so right. (... At least Archie lets Wolfe buy him presents without fussing about it!)
Man, now I want a story where Lily Rowan and Harriet meet up and chat. I think they'd really get along!
no subject
Instead, imho, he seems to just paint the relapses as one more annoying eccentricity that Wolfe has, one that is unsurprising because he's a genius and is supposed to have weird quirks and fits of star/diva-like insanity. (Like Tracy Jordan on 30 Rock to make an insane comparison.)
By making the relapses just seem odd, Archie strips them of their potential weight/horror/trauma and because he doesn't explicitly say anything like 'Wolfe's time in prison in X country' or 'Wolfe kept having panic attacks because of his time in Z year', he kind of (to me) disassociates the relapses from WWI--and by doing so he also disassociates them from Wolfe himself. When I read the books I don't get the sense that Wolfe's life experiences resulted in these relapses, they are instead like headaches or a cold (in the sense of anyone can get them, there's nothing you can really do about them etc.)
The way the relapses are described in the books makes me want to see (and read fics about) what they were 'really' like, without Archie's unreliable narration. I would also like to know how everyone reacted to his first book, and the rest (esp. the infamous santa claus-Botweill case)!
Also that's a great idea of 'Archie was first hired to assist during a relapse'--and it even explains (if we want one) his later over-protective attitude when he (to us, the readers) seems overly concerned about Wolfe, etc. Since he's seen Wolfe at his worst and we haven't, his overreaction makes more sense.