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milk_and_orchids2010-04-17 04:12 pm
jest) wrote in milk_and_orchids2010-04-17 04:12 pm
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Book Club: The League of Frightened Men
Sorry to be sliding this in at the last minute. There was a volcano. It erupted.
League of Frightened Men continues the trend of Archie acting like a five year old. In this case, a five year old with attention deficit disorder. The story opens with Wolfe and Archie in the office. Archie is in the middle of an I'm BORED, Pay Attention to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tantrum. I suspect that Archie Goodwin is every bit as high maintenance as Nero Wolfe himself.
While Archie throws pejoratives around like it is 1935, we are introduced to the antagonist, Paul Chapin, who became disabled during a hazing incident that took place at Harvard University. Paul Chapin is an Evil Cripple, with shades of Genius Cripple. I am really curious about how prevalent these tropes were when Rex Stout was writing this book. My familiarity with the Evil Cripple/Evil Wheelchair User comes mostly from Doctor Who; I'm not sure what sort of presence it had before that.
Anyway, enter Paul Chapin, psychopath. Enter the cowardly clients. Who exactly is intended to be the sympathetic character in this book? Evelyn Hibbard seemed like a good person, but she was only around for about five pages.
Which reminds me, although Wolfe is the character that is generally considered to be a misogynist I actually found Archie's attitude towards women the more offensive in this book. All his comments about women are along the lines of "…provided she's not just an item for the cleaners" or "nobody that knew merchandise would have put her on a bargain counter." It speaks volumes. Whereas Wolfe is "the only man I had ever met who used absolutely the same tone to a woman as to a man."
Archie's favorable opinion of other men seems to based on a combination of intelligence, competence, work ethic, nerve, and social class. He has a certain amount of contempt for college boys and the class privilege they represent. He obviously likes to think of himself as a working man. In Chapter 7 Archie refuses to let Fritz bring him his glass of milk in the evening, presumably because Archie doesn't like to think of himself as someone who needs to be waited on?
Wolfe's attitude towards Archie's intelligence is condescending, and who can blame him? Archie is more often in the role of man of action than man of intelligence. He claims that he has been working for Wolfe for seven years. This is easy to believe when they fight like an old married couple. At one point Archie is yelling at Wolfe when Orrie shows up with Paul Chapin's box, causing Archie to immediately break out the respectful tone and it's all, Honey, let's not fight in front of the company. *g*
But, seriously, what exactly has Archie been doing for seven years? Keeping orchid records? Body guarding? Nursing Wolfe through relapses?
Wolfe's agoraphobia and relapses are one of the most interesting features of the early books, and are something I like to keep track of.
In chapter 10:
Of course, we need to recognize the significance of Wolfe leaving the house to appreciate the scene where Archie has been drugged and is devastated at the thought that Wolfe might be murdered.
(Confession: every time I read it that scene makes me squeee so hard that I actually have to put the book down and pace around my flat enjoying it for a while before I can resume reading.)
In Chapter 11: "I have seen him, during a relapse, dispose completely of a ten-pound goose between eight o'clock and midnight."
That strikes me as a symptom of something other than eccentricity.
Thoughts? Opinions?
League of Frightened Men continues the trend of Archie acting like a five year old. In this case, a five year old with attention deficit disorder. The story opens with Wolfe and Archie in the office. Archie is in the middle of an I'm BORED, Pay Attention to Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tantrum. I suspect that Archie Goodwin is every bit as high maintenance as Nero Wolfe himself.
While Archie throws pejoratives around like it is 1935, we are introduced to the antagonist, Paul Chapin, who became disabled during a hazing incident that took place at Harvard University. Paul Chapin is an Evil Cripple, with shades of Genius Cripple. I am really curious about how prevalent these tropes were when Rex Stout was writing this book. My familiarity with the Evil Cripple/Evil Wheelchair User comes mostly from Doctor Who; I'm not sure what sort of presence it had before that.
Anyway, enter Paul Chapin, psychopath. Enter the cowardly clients. Who exactly is intended to be the sympathetic character in this book? Evelyn Hibbard seemed like a good person, but she was only around for about five pages.
Which reminds me, although Wolfe is the character that is generally considered to be a misogynist I actually found Archie's attitude towards women the more offensive in this book. All his comments about women are along the lines of "…provided she's not just an item for the cleaners" or "nobody that knew merchandise would have put her on a bargain counter." It speaks volumes. Whereas Wolfe is "the only man I had ever met who used absolutely the same tone to a woman as to a man."
Archie's favorable opinion of other men seems to based on a combination of intelligence, competence, work ethic, nerve, and social class. He has a certain amount of contempt for college boys and the class privilege they represent. He obviously likes to think of himself as a working man. In Chapter 7 Archie refuses to let Fritz bring him his glass of milk in the evening, presumably because Archie doesn't like to think of himself as someone who needs to be waited on?
Wolfe's attitude towards Archie's intelligence is condescending, and who can blame him? Archie is more often in the role of man of action than man of intelligence. He claims that he has been working for Wolfe for seven years. This is easy to believe when they fight like an old married couple. At one point Archie is yelling at Wolfe when Orrie shows up with Paul Chapin's box, causing Archie to immediately break out the respectful tone and it's all, Honey, let's not fight in front of the company. *g*
But, seriously, what exactly has Archie been doing for seven years? Keeping orchid records? Body guarding? Nursing Wolfe through relapses?
Wolfe's agoraphobia and relapses are one of the most interesting features of the early books, and are something I like to keep track of.
In chapter 10:
"…but I was thinking of suggesting that you go out and look at him."
"Out?" Wolfe raised his head at me. "Out and down the stoop?"
"Yeah, just on the sidewalk, you wouldn't have to step off the curb. He's right there."
Wolfe shut his eyes. "I don't know, Archie. I don't know why you persist in trying to badger me into frantic sorties. Dismiss the notion entirely. It is not feasible."
Of course, we need to recognize the significance of Wolfe leaving the house to appreciate the scene where Archie has been drugged and is devastated at the thought that Wolfe might be murdered.
(Confession: every time I read it that scene makes me squeee so hard that I actually have to put the book down and pace around my flat enjoying it for a while before I can resume reading.)
In Chapter 11: "I have seen him, during a relapse, dispose completely of a ten-pound goose between eight o'clock and midnight."
That strikes me as a symptom of something other than eccentricity.
Thoughts? Opinions?
no subject
Yes I agree that the case is just as important to Wolfe. I wish we heard more about it; or even had others see/comment on Archie dancing. There is too little overlap in the books lol! I find it odd he gave Archie a dictionary for one Christmas (mentioned in the 3rd Zeck bk.) I would really have liked to see a book mention someone who tried to lure Archie away into working for them, from Hewitt to Zeck! That would have been really interesting; we see Wolfe worry about women luring Archie away, but what about another man, another genius etc? (as mentioned in that recipe fic)
Sometimes during these scenes I wonder if Archie left anything out (like his miraculous spring back into action after being drugged, surely that took longer to recover from etc), but then I also wonder sometimes if he puts in details that he wouldn't be comfortable discussing in real life. I mean, after reading this book, what did Wolfe think? Or Fritz or Saul? I think sometimes he's more honest in the books than he is to the people in his life (as far as we know etc from the bks.) It's all very interesting to think about!
I think 'League' is one of the most 'personal details' packed books of the whole series; I mean the case etc, though FDL's dressing gown also has clout. I find these details so fascinating--they're like intricate, strange, personal, I think it's very realistic. But I also find some of the books to lack these types of details, though I enjoy them lol! I wish we could get more people in the NW fandom somehow, and have more fic/art production.
no subject
I suspect that the Christmas presents are one-way-- it struck me in "League" when Archie says "and I didn't even know he knew when my birthday was!" so clearly that was Archie's first *birthday* present from Wolfe. And that's after *seven years*, and after he already mentioned in the previous book that he gets Christmas presents (the dressing gown) from Wolfe and treats it like no big deal.
What I think is that this is one of those employer-employee/class-related quirks in the way Wolfe and Archie relate. I think Wolfe gives out Christmas presents to his staff the way that bosses traditionally give Christmas bonuses, or the way people give presents to other people who don't work directly *for* them, but still provide an appreciated service, like the doorman or superintendent of their building, or the mail delivery person, or their kids' teachers. It's all very formal, I bet, very "lord of the manor"-- Wolfe lines up Archie and Theodore and Fritz and hands out his largesse for the year, and doesn't expect anything in return, because he's the boss, you know?
But a *birthday* present is personal-- it shows that you cared enough to find out when someone's birthday *is*, and mark the occasion, you know? Christmas bonuses may be a boss-employee thing, but birthday presents aren't. That's why I think Stout made a point of making the present that Archie really cares about a birthday present. <3
we see Wolfe worry about women luring Archie away, but what about another man, another genius etc? (as mentioned in that recipe fic)
Yeah, really! I wonder if Wolfe was ever concerned, say, about Archie leaving him to partner up with Saul. I mean, Saul respects Wolfe way too much to ever steal Archie away, so it's kind of an irrational fear, but then, so is Archie's fear that Wolfe will replace him with Orrie or Johnny Keems, etc.
I wish we could get more people in the NW fandom somehow, and have more fic/art production.
I'm working on it! I have found that one of the best scenes to paste at people in chat windows is that one from "Too Many Cooks" where Archie threatens to leave Wolfe and marry Constanza Berin, and Wolfe is like "YOU LIE." *G*
no subject
And the fact that Archie lives there in the house also (to me) heightens the level of emotion/love he and Wolfe have for each other--I mean in the books we see ie. a standout case, and the important parts of it, but I always randomly think: these guys live together 24/7. In a lull period (or even boring cases) Archie eats alone with Wolfe twice a day every day and of course is in the office with him for like half the day (I always like when he mentions how they drink coffee in the office after dinner together.) That is a huge amount of time spent together and conversations had. To me this gives/implies/creates an underlying, extremely serious emotional backdrop to the books, which is why imho Archie is so flip about everything; if he talked about it seriously it would sound like something more odd than the books really convey (since they focus on Wolfe being a genius, his subsequent ~weird eccentricities and the case.) I think Archie makes the books very 'exciting' and makes Wolfe a awe inducing yet alien character because that's cool and it'll sell (not that I think he's exaggerating etc.)
I think all three of them (and even Saul) are so perfectly hand picked by Wolfe, and they each have interests that coincide so strongly (I mean being experts in their field, and Wolfe is a polymath), that at least for Fritz and Archie I would expect mutual present giving. I can't see Archie 'not' giving something back, partly because of how he's so proud (in a way, ie. 'he owns his own furniture'.) And of course Fritz (and Saul maybe) often seem like old friends of Wolfe, and I would assume they would exchange gifts. I do wonder if all Archie gets are presents that don't fit his own modern cultural milieu! (ie. the silk dressing gown; since he's involved in choosing the cars I discount them from Christmas gift ideas.)
And I definitely see your logic re: the birthday present, but I have to admit that I can't rationalize what Stout did there ie. he's worked for Wolfe 7 years and this is his first birthday present?? It seems odd to me. My mind has to work with the conclusion that it's an error somewhere there or else I don't get it! LOL
I wish that Stout had set up Lewis Hewitt or Marko (or Felix) as a 'potential Archie rival', or even ~Zeck~ somehow, though obviously that would be almost impossible to swing, since he's so evil. But then again, Archie's writing these and he hates to see Wolfe being super nice/desperate in public--and the books are public. I wonder what (if anything) he left out to preserve everyone's 'honor'.
Personally I always see Archie's oversensitivity about his 'replacements' as just possessiveness--like the way some people get all jealous/possessive about their spouse even though they are overreacting a little. I think it conveys pride in being with the other person/protecting & valuing your relationship with them. I guess we really have that moment in the Santa Claus escapade, but that seems more of an exploration of the premise than a long, drawn out 'she's so perfect for me' leading logically to a marriage license. I mean you don't get the sense that Archie's been talking up Margot Dickey for a while, it's just the presence of the license that spurs Wolfe into action. I would like to see this with more depth and with a genius rival, which would be far more horrifying (imho) than a woman, because a huge part of their relationship is Wolfe's genius and Archie being impressed by him.
I don't see Saul as a threat because he's so devoid of the 'airs' and eccentricities Wolfe has, and because he's presented in such a supportive/cool elder brother way, imho.
And I too keep trying to get people into NW, I was happy to see that bookshop on LJ is also into it, she's pretty popular, so hopefully that will help. You being into it is also great as you are also on that superstar lj level LOL : )
:D
no subject
Oo I have to respectfully disagree (which is hard because I am a huge fan of yours!), I can't see Archie not giving (at least) Wolfe presents.
See, I think it's just one of those weird things that comes from the fact that their relationship is, primarily, boss-employee. Like how Wolfe calls Archie & Fritz & Theodore by their first names, but they all call him "Mr. Wolfe." Not even Fritz calls him "Nero!" There's a certain inequality there, even though there's also a closeness.
That is a huge amount of time spent together and conversations had. To me this gives/implies/creates an underlying, extremely serious emotional backdrop to the books, which is why imho Archie is so flip about everything; if he talked about it seriously it would sound like something more odd than the books really convey
*nod nod* I really like the bits in the books where we get small glimpses of what "everyday" life is like when they're not on a case.
I can't see Archie 'not' giving something back, partly because of how he's so proud (in a way, ie. 'he owns his own furniture'.)
Well, that could cut both ways-- he might see giving a present to a boss as "sucking up" and be too proud to do it. Especially, maybe, the first year or two (when they weren't as close as family) and then when do you *start* doing it once you've already established not doing it as a habit? Which brings us back to the "omg leather wallet" birthday present thing. I don't think it would be such a big deal to Archie that Wolfe *knows when his birthday is* if he and Wolfe gave mutual Christmas presents like friends/family do. It's a big deal, I think, because up until that point Wolfe was still trying to keep some distance, maybe unsure about expressing himself-- and then seven years in, something changed, and he made the gesture. <3
And of course Fritz (and Saul maybe) often seem like old friends of Wolfe, and I would assume they would exchange gifts. I do wonder if all Archie gets are presents that don't fit his own modern cultural milieu! (ie. the silk dressing gown; since he's involved in choosing the cars I discount them from Christmas gift ideas.)
Hm, I can see Wolfe and Saul exchanging presents, because Saul is a freelancer, not an employee. Maybe.
I wish that Stout had set up Lewis Hewitt or Marko (or Felix) as a 'potential Archie rival', or even ~Zeck~ somehow, though obviously that would be almost impossible to swing, since he's so evil.
I really like your idea about Archie meeting another genius and Wolfe being jealous that this someone might steal Archie away. :D
Also, *cough*, I would totally read Archie/Marko, were someone to write it. Although realistically it would probably happen in some situation with Archie, Marko and a girl. "Gentlemen, you don't have to compete over me," etcetera. And Marko would be all cool and casual and continental about it and Archie would be like !!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Haha, also, maybe I used to be "bigger" on LJ but I haven't even been in an established fandom in years, and I hardly write anything except for Yuletide, so I don't know what my superpowers consist of as far as getting people into the books... I think the books speak for themselves. *G*
no subject
So therefore presents from him would be probably: mocking, humorous, ironic, sweet or silly.
Before (while supporting the present activity idea) I had been confused as to 'what' exactly Archie would give. This realization of the silly/mocking/sweet triad that he embodies has solved it for me LOL (This cuts out the potential problems of 'how do you buy a genius a present'/wouldn't it have to be super expensive, don't presents have to be meaningful etc.) I like to think that Archie's emphasis on the case is a result of the un-personalization of his previous gifts, ie. let's say Wolfe only bought him clothes (which would explain his extreme response to Lily's purple shirts for Archie), or books (the dictionary) etc.
In terms of the 1st birthday present in 7 years I have to hold my position of not believing it--that it takes 7 years for any acknowledgement that Wolfe knows his birthday is unsupportable to me I guess. However I do have one scenario I can get behind: if when Archie first comes to Wolfe he is seriously/severely suffering from ptsd etc/or having severe (ie. painful/upsetting) relapses then I can see that the focus would always be on Wolfe, all the time, because the situation was clearly extreme/serious. But if Wolfe is 'from the start' the basically ok guy with a few mild relapses (that consist only of food related activities), then I'm stuck.
As per Saul, I wish I knew his backstory--it would perhaps decide the present question for him
=)!!
Re: The rival genius idea, it just kills me that we never get that in the books, because we get lots of other 'what if xyz happened?' scenes. Ie. What if Marko was killed, would Wolfe go to Mtgro. to find his killer? What if Archie seemed to be actually getting married? What if Archie was outside of NYC and had to stay for a while because of a case? etc
We get to see a lot of these questions answered, but the rival genius one would be so amazing! And LOL at the Archie/Marko, my mind is too simple to handle that idea--but Archie as his secretary etc, or Marko putting the moves on Archie only for Wolfe to be like 'no way' (& Lily too potentially) I could see. I think the rival would have to have genius for it to work, because interestingly that seems to be the only thing Archie really respects and/or responds to. Obviously we have to decide what his reasons are for working for Wolfe, but I think the genius aspect is a huge part of it, a kind of infallible faith and certainty in Wolfe's powers of genius. I often see Wolfe as a brilliant eccentric in the style of great divas, so it is interesting to me to think how and if Wolfe is 'performing' for Archie. In the sense that he likes the adulation and attention.
I wonder what other situations Archie went !!!!!!! at! =) I wish there was more of an exploration of the huge culture/age/class clash that is the relationship of NW & AG. I mean there must have been comments about Archie's milk obsession, and the palate work the two gourmets in the house must have done on Archie would be hysterical/fun to read. I would also like to see Archie react to what people must inevitably say about him re being a stereotypical jokester/fool/talk back to power person who is young and pretty and charismatic enough to be a potential catamite. Does he get angry, or does he realize how many times he's going to hear it and not care? We do see him often be blase about being called' NW's Archie Goodwin.
I laughed out loud at your 'superpowers', I liked that. And at least if I'm wrong you can have the consolation that I would put you up there in the NW senate chamber, definitely. Pick your state. I always think of fandom like a government with positions LOL! =)!